<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Thank you Franz for this long additional and detailed shared comments.<br></div></div><div>Added to the other part of the discussion (same title without RE:), the sideview all of this, could generate great non-conventional, but reliable, solutions.<br></div><div>It might be great to keep on think of it.<br></div><div>Freelly,<br></div><div>Antoine<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-09-07 12:51 GMT+02:00 Franz Nahrada <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:f.nahrada@reflex.at" target="_blank">f.nahrada@reflex.at</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Thank you Antoine for your response. I really had the feeling of being a bit ignored.</font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">"Antoine, as a contact of a free smallwindturbine project" <<a href="mailto:smallwindturbineproj.contactor@gmail.com" target="_blank">smallwindturbineproj.contactor@gmail.com</a>> <b> </b>wrote<b>:</b></font></div><span class="">
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">Hi Franz and the list.</font></span></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">I just add some comments, if relevant in this cost/price reasonning.</font></span></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">Question of value, is as simple as complex.</font></span></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">Question: Value of money ? or value of contribution for Humanity ? Or for Univers ?</font></span></div>
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</span><div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Obviously the term value is ambigous, but when economists want to determine the value, its definitely a money question. </font></div><span class="">
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">The answer to the question of what is the value in term of money (or money equivalence), is not so difficult. </font></span></div>
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</span><div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">do you really think so? My point was, that the determination of value only works through a chaotic process of competition. </font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">1. You have to keep a commodity from being consumed and ask for a monetary equivalent, withuot payment no consumption.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">2. Then the process of value-determination happens, by supply and demand.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">3. The process is always a competitive process between several indeopendent providers of the commodity, or else someone will fix a monopoly price or at the other end of the spectrum a sellout price.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">4. Given no fluctuation of supply and demand, value is determined by average social productivity and additional necessary costs (raw materials, rent etc.)</font></div><span class="">
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">However, answer is not unique. It depends of the deep, the width and the relevancy of the skill of the answerer, its goals, its believes, and the goals of the structure for which the answerer gives the answer. Pricing as always be funny to study, as strategy study is.</font></span></div>
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</span><div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">My point is: yes, the value calculation might look funny, but in fact it is only an idle attempt to ask for revenue to the providers.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">The point is that as long as the mental and experimental labour is free (as in Free Design), nobody will care to calculate it.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Thus the idea of a license that asks for reciprocacy, like the P2P License, which would force a price on the usage of Open Design - for those who do not give back otherwise.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Do we want licenses that request payment? obviously not.</font></div><span class="">
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">The value in term of money, for a "tangible physical thing, but not software" delivered via a "free licence", could be zero, as soon as the entire supply chain is delivered at zero cost. </font></span></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">That is the way free software are delivered: it is considered that all the supplay chain to get and install a free software, is at zero cost for the user.</font></span></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">In the reality, it is not correct. The supply chain to get a free software delivered for free, is not at zero cost. But the user imagine it is. The same could be done for a "free opensource hardware".</font></span></div>
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</span><div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">So we need to look at the ways free software works.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">It is only possible because it is subsidized from many sides, from the developers with their time, from the side of the users by accepting that things are not developed as bite-sized and fool-prone as in the commercial world. From the side of companies and ever corporations with money and employees time.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">If we had an ideal market for Free / OS Hardware, there would be research costs in the price of the product, but this would only work on the condition of voluntary agreements or forced fees for a developers fund. (like we have in arts).</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Voluntary agreements could arise if associations small enterprises decided to sponsor a common resource facility (like Open Source Ecology or OpenTech Forever) and complement it with an agreement on shared in-company research. Enterprises have always been better at cooperation than their public image is. Its a total myth that competitors dont talk to each other. This "cooperative element" could be largely expanded...</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Forced fees however could take the form of taxation, like for the establishment of public MakerSpaces and the granting of project dependent stipends. Why only roads, libraries and sports grounds?</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">I understand that all the efforts to determine a "value" might be rooted here. If we used a clearer language, we would understand the problematique better. There are efforts that need to be maintained by society, and the best ways is to understand that knowledge must be socially maintained as a commons. Its all a question of negociations and renegociations, there is no "automatic fix" to that.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">In reality, even the "value" of any given piece of proprietory knowledge is a price determined by needs and powers. A constant chaos, yet very well working for those who run the commerical machine, supported by government agencies and public institutions. There is hardly a scientific calculation behind anything. Its a question of brute or subtle force.</font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">I see a different option to escape this situation by a new general social contract. Imagine that we had a world of local economies, producing locally for local needs but cooperating globally in terms of R&D - Then we do not want to exchange equivalents, rather we want to strengthen everybody. It would be rather a system of honor that the strong and developed throw more into the pot, whereas the ones that are helped out of their weakness feel the moral obligation to eventually "pay forward". I share this design idea with Marcin Jacubowski and many others.</font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward</a></font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0"><a href="http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/FAQ#What_do_you_foresee_as_the_deeper_political_effects_of_your_work.3F" target="_blank">http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/FAQ#What_do_you_foresee_as_the_deeper_political_effects_of_your_work.3F</a></font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">What do you foresee as the deeper political effects of your work?</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">"Governments as we know them become obsolete with the advent of open source ecology, as do all structures for collecting and redistributing resources with significant collateral damage.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">Distributive, collaborative production with universal access to advanced, appropriate tools will be so productive it will outcompete existing businesses. We foresee an equal playing field of competent, well-organized, small-scale, decentralized republics after the borders of empires dissolve through a natural progress of evolution. This is true whether one lives in the first, second, third, or fourth worlds; these distinctions likewise dissolve with open source ecology."</font></div>
<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">"Our vision is a world where every community has access to an open source Fab Lab which can produce all the things that one currently finds at a Walmart cost-effectively, quickly, on-demand from local resources. We envision these Labs being self-replicating and multiplying like rabbits. This would be a giant leap for distributive economics – where resource constraints no longer apply. People would then have a chance to shift a significant portion of their energy to interests beyond mere survival. The end state is super-skilled workers, free of control from remote power centers, as people in communities regain their power to thrive without strings attached to their happiness. The scope of production should include everything from food to fuels and energy to semiconductors and metals."</font></div>
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="+0">The question of a shift in social structures will inevitably arise with OSH. Value in the monetary meaning (equivalent exchange) will give place to value as contribution to humanity and the universe.</font></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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<div style="text-align:left" align="left"><font style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="+0">Franz</font></div>
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