<html><head/><body><html><head></head><body>I'm hoping what will come of the discussion is what are legit things for oshwa to tackle, what use it can be to its constituents, and how the oshw definition can be of use in practice. None of those things are clear to me. Though Marco's answers about idsa have been the most useful and instructive for me so far. And it seems we have a big divide in terms of what practice means, for individuals vs. companies.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Nathan Seidle <nathan@sparkfun.com> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Devlin - (good to hear from you! It's been a long time!) To speak to the FCC problem and to use Marco Perry's words from the open hardware summit: 'those are business problems' and not a valid OSHW 'what if...' Someone copying an FCC ID is the same for both open and closed designs. FCC IDs are assigned to the specific applicant. Copying an ID is an offense no matter the type of open/closed widget.<div>
<br /></div><div>To Everyone - Let's try to stay away from brainstorming all the ways a product could get us sued/arrested/killed. If we don't, we will never leave the house. As a community we should balance (as intelligently as we can) the risk of bad things happening against the good that will come from sharing and learning from OSHW.</div>
<div><div><br /></div><div style="style">I am enthralled by this discussion but what should come of it? Topics to add to the FAQ? We need to consolidate the communities' feelings into one place so that we do not repeat the same debates.</div>
<div><br /></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" /><div><font color="#888888">-- <br />Nathan Seidle<br />CEO, SparkFun Electronics Inc<br />Boulder, CO<br />Phone : 1-303-284-0979<br />Fax : 1-303-443-0048 <a value="+13034430048"></a></font></div>
<br /><br /><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Marco Perry <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mperry@pensanyc.com" target="_blank">mperry@pensanyc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">A certification will not keep people from suing you for what ever they want. One lawyer told me that if I don't open source an invention correctly that people can sue me if they follow our BOM and instructions and hurt themselves building our thing. I was also afraid that our invention violated an existing patent, and open sourcing our invention would be also somehow make us liable to a patent suit. Couple those legal issues with all the worries around open sourcing (rip-offs, loss of business, scarring off investor, etc.), it makes it hard to open source.<div>
Knowing a trade organization is there to lend a helping hand - expertise, knowledge, best practices, relevant examples that I can follow, a source of expert witnesses if I do get sued, advocates, advisers and so forth would make me feel more comfortable to open sourcing. </div>
<div>Without a cohesive trade org, everyone can define "open" as they wish, act on their best interests (not a community interest), and it's back to everyone for themselves. </div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
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<br /><br /><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Chris Church <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thisdroneeatspeople@gmail.com" target="_blank">thisdroneeatspeople@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:12 PM, Tom Igoe wrote:<br />
<br />
> The folks I'm thinking of (3 cases) make toys or puzzle-like things for kids, and espouse open source ideals pretty heavily. But they've also found that if they open source their mechanical designs, they face much higher liability insurance premiums than if they do not. They have to have Consumer Product Safety Commission approval, and they run afoul of that if someone comes to them and says "My kid swallowed a part made with your design". With the manufacturing in-house, they can ensure quality control, and with the designs closed, they can't be told that they bear liability for someone else's works.<br />
><br />
<br />
</div>Internally here, we call this an "Attribution Problem," and it's one that no license can resolve. It's a liability that may be defensible in court, but the primary damage is done long before court comes to be. When you have a clone of a well-known (within the specific market) product, the customer tends to attribute any failings of the clone with the original.<br />
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What I've often heard in OSHW discussions is that a license which doesn't allow commercial cloning of the product would prevent that product from being "fully open-source," which seems to leave anyone selling retail products (I don't mean PCBs to hackers) fully exposed to the attribution problem. I'd sleep a lot better at night if there were an inverse of CC-BY-ND, like CC-BY-SA-DO (Derivatives Only) and share absolutely everything if it were to be.<br />
<span><font color="#888888"><br />
Chris<br />
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<p style="margin-top: 2.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; border-bottom: 1px solid #000"></p><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap:break-word; font-family: sans-serif; margin-top: 0px"><hr /><br />discuss mailing list<br />discuss@lists.oshwa.org<br /><a href="http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss</a><br /></pre></blockquote></div><br>
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