[Discuss] unconference: open-source computer-aided-hardware-design (CAD) tools (OSCAHDcon?)

Emilio Velis contacto at emiliovelis.com
Fri Mar 13 15:31:40 UTC 2015 

Mario and I could support from El Salvador if you're interested in a
subject related to development ir appropriate hardware. I know that our OH
cluster here would also be super happy to watch it streamed.

El viernes, 13 de marzo de 2015, Ilia Lebedev <ilebedev at mit.edu> escribió:

> Also: how's "Cadet" for the name?: CAD extensible toolkit. Space Cadet!
> Anything that is easy to pronounce, and is amenable to a cute logo would be
> lovely.
>
> Best,
> -i
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 10:30 AM Ilia Lebedev <ilebedev at mit.edu
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ilebedev at mit.edu');>> wrote:
>
>> Good summary!
>> More from my conversations with Nancy:
>>
>> In my mind, a successful project must be *modular*, amd let go of a
>> strong brand identity. We ought to permit someone in the community to
>> expand the project to suit their needs without becoming an expert in our
>> project. We could learn a lesson from the LLVM compiler model. Here are
>> some examples:
>>
>> - an all-ages papercraft CAD tools has absolutely no need for parametric
>> curves and many other features of a common cad tool, but shares a lot of
>> concerns with something like solidworks. I would like it to be easy for
>> someone to come along, hack at the visualizer, and include the analysis,
>> transformations, modeling tools, and primitives they need to make a
>> papercraft CAD tool that doesn't suck. They can write a self-contained tool
>> that "unwraps" geometry, adds glue tabs and wow! Papercraft!
>>
>> - an esoteric simulation engine for fancy science XYZ should find it easy
>> to build their screwball primitives into our tool. These primitives,
>> however, should not become canon. I'm looking at you, Blender. Also
>> FreeCAD. In my mind, the (ideally human-readable) design file will
>> enumerate the toolkit it relies on (perhaps just the primitives included).
>>
>> - A cs graphics / software design class would like to assign diverse
>> projects to students: a renderer, some new fancy type of parametric
>> surface, a different constraint solver, or a scene graph that allows fast
>> queries for, say, meshing for simulation of forces applied. They should be
>> able to do so by understanding the (simple and extremely well-documented)
>> design representation, and writing the tools they need. They should not
>> have to touch the UI, the tool binaries, and they should not have to
>> recompile the entire project.
>>
>> Instead of building a cad tool to end all cad tools, we would do well to
>> agree on a common, powerful, and extensible intermediate representation of
>> designs. A small, active, and very clever group would moderate this
>> intermediate representation, and keep it from becoming merely a superset of
>> everyone's preferences. We could learn from the Golang design team here.
>>
>> Some ideas for an in-person meetup. What could we hope to accomplish?
>> -Nailing down the collaboration model: agree on some productive
>> separation of concerns. While everyone will want to develop in whatever
>> language they like, we must have a convincing story for easy deployment,
>> cross platform-ness, and extensibility [1] .
>>  - Finding holes in our collective expertise, as Nancy was clever to
>> observe, and appointing specific people to moderate each aspect of the
>> design.
>>  - Dream up a utopia of an environment within which we can create the
>> tools we need, which can all coexist without complex interaction (thereby
>> making it easy to modify/add new tools).
>>
>> Regarding the name: cadmium! :D But in all seriousness, I avoid picking a
>> name for the project
>>
>> [1] (I am a big fan of using the browser as a platform, as a browser
>> already implements a lot of annoying things we are likely to get wrong
>> ourselves. A browser already does a good job of semi-securely implementing
>> persistent local storage, p2p and p2server communication, and dynamic
>> loading of resources. Recent specs include a concurrent, multi-threaded
>> environment for javascript - a big step forward. Onshape demonstrates that
>> in-browser cad is viable. The supply chain is also simplified if the
>> tool is served from a web site: I imagine the tool dynamically loading
>> support for whatever primitives it needs to work with a given design file
>> transparently. Oh, you're opening a design with a fluid simulation, hang
>> on, let me go and fetch this solver from the repository. Oh, you're doing
>> papercraft? Great, I won't bother loading parametric curves, but will load
>> the paper-related modules.
>>
>> Thoughts/ideas/feedback are very welcome.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:50 AM Nancy Ouyang <nancy.ouyang at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nancy.ouyang at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> sorry... going to keep spamming, i lean toward over-inclusiveness
>>> instead of privacy...
>>>
>>> clarification... i suspect that this first unconference should be 6
>>> people max in room for a day... thrash through a lot of thoughts very
>>> quickly and efficiently in-person... i'll do my best before-hand to collate
>>> input from people in different areas of expertise & people working in this
>>> space.
>>>
>>> ```````````` list ````````````
>>> 1.1.1 Assimp
>>> 1.1.2 Art of Illusion
>>> 1.1.3 Blender
>>> 1.1.4 BlenderCAD
>>> 1.1.5 BRL-CAD
>>> 1.1.6 CadQuery
>>> 1.1.7 FreeCAD
>>> 1.1.8 HeeksCAD
>>> 1.1.9 Inkscape
>>> 1.1.10 K3D
>>> 1.1.11 LibreCAD
>>> 1.1.12 OpenSCAD
>>> 1.1.13 POVray
>>> 1.1.14 pyGear
>>> 1.1.15 PythonOCC
>>> 1.1.16 QCAD
>>> 1.1.17 ScorchCAD
>>> 1.1.18 Shapesmith
>>> 1.1.19 SolveSpace
>>> 1.1.20 Wings3D
>>>
>>>
>>> `````````````ppl not on the list who i know are working in the
>>> space`````````````
>>>
>>>    - http://n-e-r-v-o-u-s.com/
>>>
>>> Rosenberg
>>>
>>>    - http://www.mattkeeter.com/projects/antimony/old.html
>>>
>>> wait... i swear this person was in mas.863 with me... i might even
>>> remember his face
>>>
>>>    - http://mach30.org/ https://github.com/dcowden/cadquery
>>>
>>> o right this is from Matt Maier on this list
>>>
>>> nadya: definitely on-board last i talked to her
>>>
>>> `````````````pulling out from thread on MITERS / my chat
>>> logs`````````````
>>>
>>>    - ilia, who has been helping me flesh out ideas
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    "what's out there now is not sufficient to *empower people to do
>>>    design without access to high end tools through school/work*, and
>>>    that ought to change"
>>>     it would make sense to enumerate what exactly the problems with the
>>>    current cad situation are, whom the current state of affairs fails
>>>    and where the current, non-free tools, are lacking because they
>>>    can't innovate freely"
>>>    "think it would be a tremendous success if there is a general
>>>    agreement on the overall vision of what kind of person this tool will
>>>    serve, the problems we won't try to solve"
>>>
>>>    - bayley, who started on a newtonian solver and i am slowly coercing
>>>    out of solo developer corner
>>>    - " cad sofware that you can put on your MPI cluster and have it
>>>       say, solve a 747 at 100fps / arbitrarily large system"
>>>       - "in fact, *Solidworks performance is entirely bound by the
>>>       performance of a single core*)."
>>>    - tdelgado, "i have strong thoughts on horrid state of non-FLOSS 3D
>>>    CAD software"
>>>    - dgonz,  "Solidworks is so slow for me on an i7 with a workstation
>>>    GPU"
>>>       -  "file compatibility is huge. I wish there were some kind of
>>>       .oasm *open assembly file format* that Solidworks could read and
>>>       open and save as, to move assemblies between CAD programs."
>>>       - "mechanism and assembly design, and seeing whether or not my
>>>       mechanism is fully constrained"
>>>    - bshaya, "redefine formats to something open and text based that
>>>    can be independently version controlled"
>>>    - me: "support a cottage industry of folks making cool and fun
>>>    things for each other. "
>>>       - "*middle schoolers can design 747s or design nyancat-shaped
>>>       tesla coils or CAD a butterfly in their spare time with minimal UI pain*
>>>       "
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~
>>> narwhaledu.com, educational robots
>>> <http://gfycat.com/ExcitableLeanAkitainu> [[<(._.)>]] my personal blog
>>> <http://www.orangenarwhals.com>, orangenarwhals
>>> arvados.org (open source software for provenance, reproducing, and
>>> scaling your analyses)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Nancy Ouyang <nancy.ouyang at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nancy.ouyang at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> re: pierce, ok/yay -- it'll probably be a weekend, so instead we'll
>>>> "shake you down" for your thoughts before convening and report back,
>>>> hopefully you can attend the next meetup remotely somehow.
>>>>
>>>> re: alex: that's point 2, idk, depends on the shape of the conference,
>>>> if it's presentation-style we can get someone to record video, livestream
>>>> it, if it's design-focused, maybe we can all collaborate on google docs, a
>>>> single laptop set up on the table for remote collaborators to shout ideas /
>>>> ask questions / feel like they are part of the conference
>>>>
>>>> re: abram: awesome! maybe both presentation & design-spec should
>>>> happen, i hadn't thought about presentations from people, thanks for the
>>>> idea. specifically, i*f you want to help spec out what should happen
>>>> before, during, and by the end of the conference, *that would be great.
>>>>
>>>> BEFORE: notify ppl in community, like everyone involved in
>>>> http://reprap.org/wiki/Useful_Software_Packages &
>>>> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/CAD_tools, identify key missing
>>>> areas of expertise
>>>>
>>>> (invite designers from RISD? UI & modelling engine researchers at
>>>> CSAIL? Design tool researchers at Media Lab? people who have connections to
>>>> Google and can get a GSoC
>>>> <https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2015> focused
>>>> on Hardware to happen or money to otherwise appear? product designers who
>>>> can find early-adopter end-users and get them hyped and excited and lining
>>>> up to provide detailed feedback? technical writers who can herd everyone
>>>> into articulating clear visions to agree on?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DURING: people present, then split into design spec or issue-oriented
>>>> groups
>>>>
>>>> BY THE END: ?? what is vision we can all share ?? OSCAHD tools are
>>>> en-route to becoming *better* than current industry standards, widely
>>>> adopted, stable releases, highly usable, actively developed, have paid
>>>> developers or monetary support from several (>2) large and stable
>>>> commercial companies, within 5 years??
>>>>
>>>> ugh this sounds like a hackathon. maybe time to cash in and call it a
>>>> hackathon and get a local company like Bolt to sponsor food and swag for
>>>> us... -.-
>>>>
>>>> ~~~
>>>> narwhaledu.com, educational robots
>>>> <http://gfycat.com/ExcitableLeanAkitainu> [[<(._.)>]] my personal blog
>>>> <http://www.orangenarwhals.com>, orangenarwhals
>>>> arvados.org (open source software for provenance, reproducing, and
>>>> scaling your analyses)
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 2:18 AM, Alex J V <alex at makeystreet.com
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','alex at makeystreet.com');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible to attend it online?
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 6:25 AM, abram connelly <
>>>>> abram.connelly at gmail.com
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','abram.connelly at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be interested in attending, presenting and/or helping organize,
>>>>>> just let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think having people present CAD tools they're working on,
>>>>>> contributing to or even just giving talks on the various open alternatives
>>>>>> and how to use them would be pretty interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the name, how about something like BOSCAHD (Boston Open Source
>>>>>> Computer Aided Hardware Design)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Ilia Lebedev <ilebedev at mit.edu
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ilebedev at mit.edu');>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll be there and will help in whatever way I can.
>>>>>>> Thanks for taking the first steps!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS those names are terrible. We don't need a name before we do great
>>>>>>> work!
>>>>>>> -i
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 7:54 PM Pierce Nichols <
>>>>>>> pierce at logos-electro.com
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pierce at logos-electro.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nancy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That sounds super cool, and I wish I could attend. However, I have
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> free weekends for the next couple of months and I'm on the wrong
>>>>>>>> side
>>>>>>>> of the country (Seattle).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -p
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Nancy Ouyang <
>>>>>>>> nancy.ouyang at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nancy.ouyang at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > i'm organizing an in-person meetup / unconference this sometime
>>>>>>>> in the next
>>>>>>>> > month. it will be at MIT in boston, ma.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > let me know if you
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > want to help organize productive meeting
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > specify desired outcomes of the meeting
>>>>>>>> > specify scope of meeting (for instance, does this design tools
>>>>>>>> include EDA,
>>>>>>>> > 2D/3D, parametric, sculpture-oriented, performance-oriented,
>>>>>>>> > usability-oriented, all of the above?)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > have opinions about how to include remote contributors
>>>>>>>> > want to attend
>>>>>>>> > or have a better name than CADcamp or OSCAHDcon, ugh, so terrible
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > i'll email more details out after I actually get some of my
>>>>>>>> paying work
>>>>>>>> > done...
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 7:29 PM, Pierce Nichols <
>>>>>>>> pierce at logos-electro.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pierce at logos-electro.com');>>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Free software makes me think of free-as-in-puppy and free
>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>> >> makes me think of free-as-in-boat... I *much* prefer the open
>>>>>>>> source
>>>>>>>> >> terminology for both.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On a slightly more serious note, the existing open design tools
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> distinctly user un-friendly. UI design is a critical need if
>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>> >> go attain wider adoption.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> -p
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Nancy Ouyang <
>>>>>>>> nancy.ouyang at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nancy.ouyang at gmail.com');>>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > I strongly object to using the term "Free Hardware", as stated
>>>>>>>> >> > previously
>>>>>>>> >> > [1]. I hope other people agree with me, or care to explain
>>>>>>>> otherwise.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > Timofonic:
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > I like the idea of GSoC, but for hardware, or more accurately,
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> >> > developing open-source computer-aided-hardware-design tools and
>>>>>>>> >> > standards /
>>>>>>>> >> > standard file formats.
>>>>>>>> >> > Wow, what a mouthful. Maybe it's time to poke google.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > Anyway, I'm pretty distressed by the millions of dollars being
>>>>>>>> poured
>>>>>>>> >> > into
>>>>>>>> >> > closed-source 123D, Circuitmaker, OnShape and the continued
>>>>>>>> lack of
>>>>>>>> >> > interoperability in circuit design land. (also in my opinion
>>>>>>>> we should
>>>>>>>> >> > explicitly search for UI/design contributors... I think
>>>>>>>> prioritizing
>>>>>>>> >> > usability could even give open-source tools a lead in EDA).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > Re: open books, http://en.wikibooks.org/
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > =====
>>>>>>>> >> > [1]
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> I do not know the difference between free software and open
>>>>>>>> source
>>>>>>>> >> >> software. I assume "OSS" is more business-friendly. I don't
>>>>>>>> >> >> particularly
>>>>>>>> >> >> care and certainly hope that OSHW does not split in a
>>>>>>>> similarly
>>>>>>>> >> >> confusing
>>>>>>>> >> >> manner (distinguishing "free hardware" vs "open-source
>>>>>>>> hardware" would
>>>>>>>> >> >> just
>>>>>>>> >> >> be exasperating).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-March/001461.h
>>>>>>>> tml
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > ~~~
>>>>>>>> >> > narwhaledu.com, educational robots [[<(._.)>]] my personal
>>>>>>>> blog,
>>>>>>>> >> > orangenarwhals
>>>>>>>> >> > arvados.org (open source software for provenance,
>>>>>>>> reproducing, and
>>>>>>>> >> > scaling
>>>>>>>> >> > your analyses)
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Timofonic <
>>>>>>>> timofonic at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','timofonic at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> Hello.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> I'm new at electronics, but I was thinking about it.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> I have some questions about Free/Open Hardware, maybe even
>>>>>>>> full of
>>>>>>>> >> >> radical
>>>>>>>> >> >> thinking:
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - Can IC based designs be considered as Free Hardware if the
>>>>>>>> design and
>>>>>>>> >> >> manufacture process aren't free too? I have some simple
>>>>>>>> examples:
>>>>>>>> >> >> lm237-based adjustable power supply vs one using only discrete
>>>>>>>> >> >> components
>>>>>>>> >> >> (are those patents expired? Another issue), computer hardware
>>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>>> >> >> Raspberry Pi using free schematics but proprietary components
>>>>>>>> (CPU and
>>>>>>>> >> >> others).
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - Can computer systems with open source schematics and PCB
>>>>>>>> not full
>>>>>>>> >> >> featured open source hardware drivers be considered as Open
>>>>>>>> Hardware?
>>>>>>>> >> >> Raspberry Pi or an hypothetical Open Hardware AMD-based
>>>>>>>> motherboard
>>>>>>>> >> >> with
>>>>>>>> >> >> ported Coreboot, but opensource hardware drivers a lot behind
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> >> >> proprietary ones, OpenPandora/Dragon using PowerVR GPU
>>>>>>>> without proper
>>>>>>>> >> >> Open
>>>>>>>> >> >> Source hardware drivers.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - Free Hardware designs but using proprietary software such as
>>>>>>>> >> >> DipTrace/Eagle/Altium/CircuitMaker/Other.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - Are there some kind of planning for priorities of projects
>>>>>>>> to be done
>>>>>>>> >> >> and some effective way to incentivate it? For example,
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> >> >> similar to
>>>>>>>> >> >> GSoC but for hardware.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - What about Free/Open Hardware tes tools? High precision
>>>>>>>> power
>>>>>>>> >> >> supplies
>>>>>>>> >> >> and multimeters, soldering iron stations, oscilloscopes, logic
>>>>>>>> >> >> analyzers,
>>>>>>>> >> >> CNC, UV PCB exposure boxes...
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> - What about Free/Open Hardware from the ground up? High
>>>>>>>> quality open
>>>>>>>> >> >> learning material:
>>>>>>>> >> >> --Open Books: different levels from basic for children (no
>>>>>>>> idea about
>>>>>>>> >> >> available material, sorry) and adults such as works from
>>>>>>>> Forrest Mims
>>>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>>>> >> >> complete (think of something like Art of Electronics and
>>>>>>>> Practical
>>>>>>>> >> >> Electronics for Inventors) and advanced, organize
>>>>>>>> translations ,
>>>>>>>> >> >> didactical
>>>>>>>> >> >> games even for adults but not dummy ones, practices,
>>>>>>>> volunteering
>>>>>>>> >> >> tutors for
>>>>>>>> >> >> learning aid to people interested on Free/Open hardware but
>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>> >> >> issues
>>>>>>>> >> >> with the learning process and collaboration with learning
>>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>>> >> >> (schools,
>>>>>>>> >> >> colleges, vocational training schools, universities...).
>>>>>>>> >> >> -- Software: EDA (KiCad and FreeEDA looks promising) and a
>>>>>>>> solid
>>>>>>>> >> >> interoperability file format initiative similar to IDF and
>>>>>>>> >> >> OpenDocument,
>>>>>>>> >> >> favouring development of new tools and good project
>>>>>>>> management.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> Kind regards.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> El 12 de marzo de 2015 12:15:20 CET, "Antoine, as a contact
>>>>>>>> of a free
>>>>>>>> >> >> smallwindturbine project" <smallwindturbineproj.contacto
>>>>>>>> r at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','smallwindturbineproj.contactor at gmail.com');>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> >> escribió:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> Excuse me all, but I just would like to write this: the
>>>>>>>> question of
>>>>>>>> >> >>> "free" for everything-but-software, is a right question,
>>>>>>>> with or
>>>>>>>> >> >>> without
>>>>>>>> >> >>> philosophical inputs, with or without pro or cons arguments.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> For instance, the level of requirements of GNU-GPL terms and
>>>>>>>> >> >>> conditions,
>>>>>>>> >> >>> is not yet completely replicated and reach into the
>>>>>>>> non-software
>>>>>>>> >> >>> univers.
>>>>>>>> >> >>> That is a fact.
>>>>>>>> >> >>> The question is: is it possible to reach such a level of
>>>>>>>> GNU-GPL for
>>>>>>>> >> >>> everything-but-software, and how could it be reach ?
>>>>>>>> >> >>> The question should not be: reaching such a level, is it
>>>>>>>> good or bad ?
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> Works, publications, of FSF or their representatives or
>>>>>>>> members, on
>>>>>>>> >> >>> this
>>>>>>>> >> >>> question of "free notion for everything-but-software", will
>>>>>>>> be very
>>>>>>>> >> >>> useful
>>>>>>>> >> >>> for all of us, don't you think ?
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> Freely,
>>>>>>>> >> >>> Antoine
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> 2015 -03-11 21:28 GMT+01:00 Emilio Velis <
>>>>>>>> contacto at emiliovelis.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','contacto at emiliovelis.com');>>:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> If you don't have a strong philosophical argument against
>>>>>>>> the "sweat
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the brow" provisos, then there is no real case against
>>>>>>>> property.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> Regarding these arguments, although it's not specifically
>>>>>>>> 'libre', a
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> good case for hardware as part of the commons and peer
>>>>>>>> production is
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> laid
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> out by Michel Bauwens in his FLOK research paper about
>>>>>>>> transitioning
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> to a
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> commons-based society:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> https://floksociety.co-ment.com/text/xMHsm6YpVgI/view/. I
>>>>>>>> think there
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> more on the subject on that project, but there are so many
>>>>>>>> papers
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> that I
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> lost track of all of them. I think it was George Dafermos
>>>>>>>> who w as in
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> charge
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> of developing the model for commons-based production.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> On 11 March 2015 at 14:18, Matt Maier <blueback09 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','blueback09 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> It's also confusing that in an argument based on pure
>>>>>>>> morality, the
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> conclusion is somehow that because something is too hard
>>>>>>>> it is not a
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> moral
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> imperative. I never understood that part of Stallman's
>>>>>>>> argument.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> He always said that hardware wasn't relevant to Free
>>>>>>>> Software. It
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> looks
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> like he's changing his mind because proprietary hardware
>>>>>>>> might make
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> it
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> impossible to run Free Software.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> I've never heard a good argument for why a thing MUST be
>>>>>>>> libre.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Taking
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> it to that extreme seems like it just discourages
>>>>>>>> creation. It means
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> that
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> the creator has to give up control of their creation or
>>>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> inescapably
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> immoral merely because they didn't give up control. I
>>>>>>>> don't think
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> there's
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> much of a precedent in philosophy for the idea that it's
>>>>>>>> inherently
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> wrong to
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> control the thing you created. If you add something to the
>>>>>>>> world the
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> only
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> reason anybody can have a discussion about whether or not
>>>>>>>> you should
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> give it
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> away is because you made it in the first place. Seems like
>>>>>>>> creation
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> prerequisite to sharing.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Of course, I strongly encourage sharing :)
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2015 1:01 PM, "Emilio Velis" <
>>>>>>>> contacto at emiliovelis.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','contacto at emiliovelis.com');>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> Not to mention the lack of viability in most cases of
>>>>>>>> jumping right
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> into that definition without any context. I think that
>>>>>>>> any 'free'
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> endeavor
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> of the sort should not be derived from a philosophical
>>>>>>>> standpoint
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> intangibles, but rather on the study of philosophy behind
>>>>>>>> private
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> property
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> (perhaps an anti-Lockean view). Drawing a
>>>>>>>> software-hardware
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> parallel is
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> confusing to say the least.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 11 March 2015 at 13:57, Drew Fustini <
>>>>>>>> pdp7pdp7 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pdp7pdp7 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> hmm, just saw this on Slashdot:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> "Why We Need Free Digital Hardware Designs"
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://hardware.slashdot.org/s
>>>>>>>> tory/15/03/11/1648243/why-we-need-free-digital-hardware-designs
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Links to Wired:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://www.wired.com/2015/03/need-free-digital-hardware-
>>>>>>>> designs/
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It appears to me that Richard Stallman wrote this
>>>>>>>> article.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Here is a quote:
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> "the concept we really need is that of a free hardware
>>>>>>>> design.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> That’s
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> simple: it means a design that permits users to use the
>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> (i.e.,
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> fabricate hardware from it) and to copy and redistribute
>>>>>>>> it, with
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> without changes. The design must provide the same four
>>>>>>>> freedoms
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> define free software."
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I do like the philosophy behind it, but I am afraid the
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> introduction
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> of the term "Free Hardware" will increase confusion
>>>>>>>> about hardware
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> licensing.
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> drew
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
>>>>>>>> brevity.
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> >> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> >> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> >> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> Pierce Nichols
>>>>>>>> >> Principal Engineer
>>>>>>>> >> Logos Electromechanical, LLC
>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> >> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Pierce Nichols
>>>>>>>> Principal Engineer
>>>>>>>> Logos Electromechanical, LLC
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Alex J V
>>>>> @alexjv89
>>>>> www.makeystreet.com/maker/alex
>>>>> Find modular open source hardware for your project @ makeystreet.com
>>>>> in.linkedin.com/in/alexjv/
>>>>> +91- 886 105 3989(India)
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> discuss mailing list
>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','discuss at lists.oshwa.org');>
>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>
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