[Discuss] discuss Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12

Emilio Velis contacto at emiliovelis.com
Mon Apr 14 23:34:49 UTC 2014


Oh, not at all! I understand your point, and I got myself into reading the
article carefully as well as your emails. Thank you for taking the time.

Now, I understand that part of the eligibility comes from the function, so
for example if you create a decorated spoon you can copyright the
decorations but not the spoon. In the case that the shape itself of the
article or its configuration is part of the mechanical/physical solution
then the whole article isn't copyrightable.

What I was trying to say is that even within the technical realm this has
to be taken into account. When you refer to 'non eligible for copyright'
you're still refering to the conceptual device by virtue of its function,
naming the article and saying "x device isn't copyrightable". And I agree.
But in case of specific creations, 17 USC 101 should be considered, and
this is why 3D printers and scanners are seen as threats to some people.
Does creating a model of a useful article pose a posibility of copyright
infringement? Despite you being absolutely correct on all you stated
earlier, some people may try to prove otherwise, which is why the subject
must be open to discussion in order to prevent any problems.

I am not a lawyer, and I actually live in a country under civil law, so any
precedents on thissubject escape my knowledge. Do you know if this specific
problem has arisen before?
El abr 14, 2014 5:16 p.m., "Michael Weinberg" <mweinberg at publicknowledge.org>
escribió:

> Again, sorry to have to disagree, but this understanding is also
> incorrect.  A useful object is not of a type of object that is eligible for
> copyright protection.  The object itself cannot be protected by copyright.
> In your last email, you include the definition from 17 USC 101 of a
> pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work (sometimes referred to as a PGS work
> for short).  That definition includes this caveat:
>
> Such works shall include works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their
> form but not their mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned
>
> In other words, the only parts of the work that are eligible for copyright
> protection are the elements that do not include mechanical or utilitarian
> aspects.
>
> We can get into a metaphysical conversation about whether the heart of an
> object that includes both functional and non-functional elements resides in
> the functional part of the object or the nonfunctional part of the object.
> However, since this process is usually described as severing the
> non-functional copyrightable elements from the article, it may be easier to
> think of the article itself as not being protected.  This may be doubly
> true in the case of hardware projects, where the functionality - the
> non-copyrightable parts - have an increased likelihood of being the
> critical part of the object for the creator.
>
> The Santa Clara Law Review article is correct that conceptual severability
> is much more complex than physical severability.  And I agree that in the
> next few years severability is going to be put to the test for all sorts of
> reasons in ways it has not been before.  In the years since the article was
> published, there are been additional attempts by various circuits to
> articulate a workable test for conceptual severability.  While some are
> better than others, it is safe to say that no one test has emerged as a
> definitive one.
>
> Perhaps more importantly for this discussion, regardless of the test, in
> cases when courts cannot find a way to conceptually separate non-functional
> from functional elements of an object (see, e.g. Carol Barhart Inc v.
> Economy Cover Corp<http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1591723934540965126&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr>,
> sort of Brandir Inc. v Cascade Pac. Lumber Co.<http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1003724633672058808&q=brandir+international+inc.+v.+cascade+pacific+lumber+co.&hl=en&as_sdt=6,33>)
> the object in question does not get any copyright protection at all.  In
> this way, the default for these "mixed" objects is no copyright protection
> at all - the potentially copyrightable elements of them need to prove that
> they are independently viable in order to get any protection at all.
>
> Why is this important?  20+ years of open source software and creative
> commons has trained many/most of us to think of openness and sharing in
> terms of copyright.  While there is still plenty of copyright in the open
> source hardware world, functional hardware is - in a way that is
> fundamentally different than software - not in the copyright world.  That
> is going to be something that OSHW needs to grapple with.  In order to do
> that properly, we need a fairly nuanced understanding of where copyright
> is, and is not, in play.  Assuming latent copyrights where none exist will
> not make that process any easier.
>
> Again, sorry for the long email and  I hope it doesn't come off as a
> rant.  I just think that this aspect of OSHW is important, so I can get a
> little ahead of myself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>wrote:
>
>> What you mean is that the functionality of an useful object cannot be
>> copyrighted (which is why patents are needed). Howerver, as far as I
>> understand it, the useful article itself can be copyrighted even if the
>> utilitarian aspect can be reproduced. Copyrightability only prevents copies
>> of source files. If by "cannot be copyrighted" you mean that the article
>> functions cannot be protected, you are correct. Nonetheless, the article
>> itself is protected. Now, this discussion is less shallow than a matter of
>> yes or no. Here's an excerpt from the document I provided earlier:
>>
>> At first blush, this test seems simple. In determining what aspects of a
>> useful article are subject to protection, all that the Copyright Office or
>> a court has to do is separate the artistic parts from the utilitarian
>> parts, and then grant protection to the separated artistic parts. This test
>> would, in fact, be simple if it hinged only on the physical separation of
>> the artistic elements from the utilitarian elements of the article.
>> However, such simplicity is not found in copyright law. In determining
>> separability, Congress has also properly declared that the pictorial,
>> graphic, or sculptural aspects of the useful article could either be
>> "physically or conceptually" separable from the utilitarian elements of the
>> useful article for protection to be granted to the artistic features.
>> Physical separability poses no real problem, for if the pictorial, graphic,
>> or sculptural element can be physically taken from the useful article
>> without affecting the func- tioning of the useful article, then that which
>> is separated is protected. The more difficult issue is determining what is
>> meant by conceptual separability.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 April 2014 16:36, Michael Weinberg <mweinberg at publicknowledge.org>wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to harp on this, but useful objects can never be protected by
>>> copyright in the United States.  They are outside of the scope of copyright
>>> protection.  Non-functional elements of useful objects that can be severed
>>> from the useful object (either physically or conceptually) can be protected
>>> by copyright.
>>>
>>> Similarly, plans for useful objects can be protected by copyright.  But
>>> a copyright on those plans for a useful object do not prevent someone from
>>> reproducing the useful (i.e. functional) object itself.  They merely
>>> protect the plans themselves from being copied.   This plan point arguably
>>> gets more complicated for CAD files for useful objects (insomuch as they
>>> become the only way to represent a useful object and copyright protection
>>> would prevent someone from reproducing said object), but that's probably a
>>> longer discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Specifically in the United States, useful objects *can *be protected
>>>> by copyright, but not in all cases. Long story short, a useful article is
>>>> copyrightable if there is a way to separate its design feature from its
>>>> useful characteristics. Here's some info on the subject of the separability
>>>> test:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1650&context=lawreview
>>>>
>>>> I think this is the part of the US Copyright law that addresses the
>>>> subject:
>>>>
>>>>> *“Pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works” include two-dimensional
>>>>> and three-dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art, photographs,
>>>>> prints and art reproductions, maps, globes, charts, diagrams, models, and
>>>>> technical drawings, including architectural plans. Such works shall include
>>>>> works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their form but not their
>>>>> mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned; the design of a useful
>>>>> article, as defined in this section, shall be considered a pictorial,
>>>>> graphic, or sculptural work only if, and only to the extent that, such
>>>>> design incorporates pictorial, graphic, or sculptural features that can be
>>>>> identified separately from, and are capable of existing independently of,
>>>>> the utilitarian aspects of the article.18
>>>>> <http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#1-18>*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14 April 2014 10:30, Michael Weinberg <mweinberg at publicknowledge.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I want to clarify a point or two here, especially with regard to what
>>>>> a copyright can and cannot protect.  Copyright can absolutely protect a
>>>>> digital file, and can absolutely protect a physical object.  In fact, the
>>>>> creator of a digital file that represents a non-functional object probably
>>>>> owns the copyright in both.  In that case, the CC license would be
>>>>> enforceable against violators regardless of the medium the unauthorized
>>>>> copy (digital or physical) appears in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The distinction that is critical to keep in mind is that copyright
>>>>> does not protect "useful" objects - things that perform tasks and whatnot.
>>>>> In large part, those types of objects are beyond the scope of copyright,
>>>>> but are at least eligible for patent.  However, blueprints and plans for
>>>>> those useful objects can be protected by copyright (and, by extension, can
>>>>> be licensed by a CC license).
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is this important?  Let's say I create a new 3D printer and
>>>>> release my plans  under a CC license.  In order to copy the plans without
>>>>> infringing on my copyrights, you need to operate within the scope of the CC
>>>>> license (attribution, share alike, whatever).  However, and this is a big
>>>>> however, you do not need my permission to create the useful object that is
>>>>> described in those plans.  Therefore, you can ignore my license
>>>>> requirements when reproducing my printer (obviously the copying of the
>>>>> files that may be required to build the printer can complicate this
>>>>> analysis, but let's keep it simple for now).
>>>>>
>>>>> This is actually a really important distinction, and one that I am
>>>>> very happy exists.  Copyright is a very powerful right, but it is
>>>>> restricted to non-functional, creative expression.  If a copyright on a
>>>>> digital file could also protect the useful object depicted in that file, it
>>>>> would massively expand the scope of copyright protection.  Every 20 year
>>>>> patent on an extruder could be turned into a life + 70 year copyright on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, while idea/expression is important in this discussion (especially
>>>>> when talking about what parts of a digital file are actually protected by
>>>>> copyright), when I weighed in I was actually thinking about something even
>>>>> more basic.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the living hinge, I'm not totally familiar with that example
>>>>> but that won't stop me from mentioning two last things.  If the 100,000
>>>>> hinges in the wild infringe on the patent, they are simply infringing on
>>>>> the patent - the patent holder may or may not decide to bring action, but
>>>>> that doesn't really change their legal status.  However, if the hinges in
>>>>> the wild are outside of the scope of the patent, they are not going to be
>>>>> infringing at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless, as a classic "useful object," the hinge itself cannot be
>>>>> licensed under any CC license because it is not protected by copyright in
>>>>> the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is cool to see something like this spread and the next decade
>>>>> is going to be a crazy time for design and engineering.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully this doesn't come across as too much legal cold water.  I
>>>>> just wanted to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently misleading anyone on
>>>>> this stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> -michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 3:03 PM, FREE SMALL WIND TURBINE PROJECT
>>>>> PEOPLE <smallwindturbineproj.contactor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Harry,
>>>>>> Copyright has not a unique meening and has not a unique legal
>>>>>> definition around the world.
>>>>>> In some countries, rights of authors covers any rights on their
>>>>>> works, whatever the derivative works are physical or not. In such
>>>>>> countries, the term "Copyright" has sometimes, no power above domestic
>>>>>> authorship rights.
>>>>>> In coutries where Cross-Country-Copyright term or domestic copyright
>>>>>> term, is enought defined, it seems admitted that CC is not enough to be
>>>>>> 100% sure physical derivative works coming from a CC design work is also CC
>>>>>> covered.
>>>>>> As you know, that is why other licences exist, like wellknown
>>>>>> TAPR-OHL and CERN-OHL : to include both documentation and products under
>>>>>> openhardware definition(s).
>>>>>> I let you searching answers for countries you'd like to include in
>>>>>> your project usage, for up and down streams of the "material things" you'd
>>>>>> like to share.
>>>>>> Freely,
>>>>>> Antoine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2014-04-12 1:23 GMT+02:00 Harry Hutton <harryhutton92 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find Michaels point intriguing - a creative commons license on the
>>>>>>> design does not actually have any bearing on the physical object.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been told that this is because CC leverages copyright - which
>>>>>>> only extends to the idea as it is expressed in the medium of its digital
>>>>>>> format (ie the bits and bytes that make up the file). So its not the actual
>>>>>>> idea itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One could manufacture the product anyway and sell it legally. You're
>>>>>>> not using the design file code commercially. You're using the physical
>>>>>>> product commercially.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've got limited knowledge of any open source licenses that work by
>>>>>>> specifically stating that the *idea* is free to use by anyone. But I
>>>>>>> suppose that works by default by putting it in the public domain?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Related*
>>>>>>> There's an interesting case of the use of a creative commons license
>>>>>>> to share a design of a living hinge (to be manufactured via laser cutter).
>>>>>>> I'm sure you've seen them before if you've been in a Fablab - living hinge
>>>>>>> example here<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WW3ol2sIU8A/UDFBvTdlK5I/AAAAAAAAFj0/FpP-9twFBik/s1600/DSC04683+%2528Custom%2529.JPG>
>>>>>>> The thing is, the *idea* for this living hinge falls under a patent
>>>>>>> http://www.google.com/patents/US7685676
>>>>>>> It won't expire until 2026
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So we have an out of control scenario of a patent being shared as
>>>>>>> open source design. It's pretty popular. I'd estimate there are over
>>>>>>> 100,000 cases of individual infringement. Its near impossible for the
>>>>>>> patent holder to track this - they're anonymous downloads on the internet -
>>>>>>> or small individuals on etsy and suchlike selling them at low volume - not
>>>>>>> enough for the damages to outweigh legal fees of a courtcase. A patent is
>>>>>>> only worth as much as how well one can defend it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Open source disrupting the system - the next decade is going to be a
>>>>>>> crazy time for the design and engineering world!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more discussion on the above case here:
>>>>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDesign/comments/20lhh6/open_design_vs_patents_living_hinge_case_study/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Harry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:18 PM, <discuss-request at lists.oshwa.org>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Send discuss mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>>>         discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of discuss digest..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    1. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Emilio Velis)
>>>>>>>>    2. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Emilio Velis)
>>>>>>>>    3. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Andrew Back)
>>>>>>>>    4. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Andrew Back)
>>>>>>>>    5. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Emilio Velis)
>>>>>>>>    6. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Emilio Velis)
>>>>>>>>    7. Re: Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware? (Michael
>>>>>>>> Weinberg)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:19:51 -0600
>>>>>>>> From: Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <CAFMcv8VsbP+k+7ajqo0WDv7p1=
>>>>>>>> f-ghY91qhTGO_HjZgUEwxV-w at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>> El abr 11, 2014 2:15 AM, "Andrew Back" <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> escribi?:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > On 11 April 2014 09:08, Ben Gray <ben at phenoptix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > >I'm of the opinion that it serves best those who don't respect
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> > licenses and punishes those who do.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > An excellent point -- NC is something of an "own goal".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Andrew
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> > http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:19:51 -0600
>>>>>>>> From: Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <CAFMcv8VsbP+k+7ajqo0WDv7p1=
>>>>>>>> f-ghY91qhTGO_HjZgUEwxV-w at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>> El abr 11, 2014 2:15 AM, "Andrew Back" <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> escribi?:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > On 11 April 2014 09:08, Ben Gray <ben at phenoptix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > >I'm of the opinion that it serves best those who don't respect
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> > licenses and punishes those who do.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > An excellent point -- NC is something of an "own goal".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Andrew
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> > http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:39:51 +0100
>>>>>>>> From: Andrew Back <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>> CADj1OPDPJbPpBZDrzfU+dyEAMERk3pm5PBszsDqR8Wyo0XqQAg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11 April 2014 14:19, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> > something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not that I know of, but it isn't difficult to ascertain what can be
>>>>>>>> regarded as such by referring to the Open Source Definition:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   http://opensource.org/osd-annotated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discrimination against field of endeavour being the issue at hand
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If in doubt simply consider whether the licence is aligned with open
>>>>>>>> source as it has come to be understood over the last 17 or so years.
>>>>>>>> Every now and again you see attempts to subvert this, e.g. via use
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> NC licences with the term or purported ancillary rules, but you
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> change the meaning of something so well established. Which is not to
>>>>>>>> say that there are not opportunities for new paradigms and which
>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>>>> some term other than "open source".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not really, as you rarely get the source with shareware.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:39:51 +0100
>>>>>>>> From: Andrew Back <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>> CADj1OPDPJbPpBZDrzfU+dyEAMERk3pm5PBszsDqR8Wyo0XqQAg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11 April 2014 14:19, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> > something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not that I know of, but it isn't difficult to ascertain what can be
>>>>>>>> regarded as such by referring to the Open Source Definition:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   http://opensource.org/osd-annotated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discrimination against field of endeavour being the issue at hand
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If in doubt simply consider whether the licence is aligned with open
>>>>>>>> source as it has come to be understood over the last 17 or so years.
>>>>>>>> Every now and again you see attempts to subvert this, e.g. via use
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> NC licences with the term or purported ancillary rules, but you
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> change the meaning of something so well established. Which is not to
>>>>>>>> say that there are not opportunities for new paradigms and which
>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>>>> some term other than "open source".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not really, as you rarely get the source with shareware.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:57:39 -0600
>>>>>>>> From: Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>> CAFMcv8W9r5Rn6R6D_1tLhLb-G4oVATJiBqDmFzTGsfi21bRJUQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that leaves us with a very ambiguous use of the term 'open'. If
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> check the CC faq, they recommend to use approved licenses only for
>>>>>>>> software:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://opensource.org/licenses
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of OSHW, due to being different than intangible goods,
>>>>>>>> a list
>>>>>>>> of requirements has to be developed for people to make sure their
>>>>>>>> work is
>>>>>>>> not open in tue definition sense of the term (i.e. source code
>>>>>>>> available)
>>>>>>>> but also regarding all layers of content and freedoms of use. A
>>>>>>>> metadesign
>>>>>>>> of licensing so that others can build upon and create options for
>>>>>>>> tinkerers
>>>>>>>> to use.
>>>>>>>> El abr 11, 2014 7:39 AM, "Andrew Back" <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> escribi?:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > On 11 April 2014 14:19, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> > > something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Not that I know of, but it isn't difficult to ascertain what can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> > regarded as such by referring to the Open Source Definition:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >   http://opensource.org/osd-annotated
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Discrimination against field of endeavour being the issue at hand
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If in doubt simply consider whether the licence is aligned with
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> > source as it has come to be understood over the last 17 or so
>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>> > Every now and again you see attempts to subvert this, e.g. via
>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>> > NC licences with the term or purported ancillary rules, but you
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> > change the meaning of something so well established. Which is not
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> > say that there are not opportunities for new paradigms and which
>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>>>> > some term other than "open source".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > > Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Not really, as you rarely get the source with shareware.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Andrew
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> > http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 6
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:57:39 -0600
>>>>>>>> From: Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>> CAFMcv8W9r5Rn6R6D_1tLhLb-G4oVATJiBqDmFzTGsfi21bRJUQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that leaves us with a very ambiguous use of the term 'open'. If
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> check the CC faq, they recommend to use approved licenses only for
>>>>>>>> software:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://opensource.org/licenses
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of OSHW, due to being different than intangible goods,
>>>>>>>> a list
>>>>>>>> of requirements has to be developed for people to make sure their
>>>>>>>> work is
>>>>>>>> not open in tue definition sense of the term (i.e. source code
>>>>>>>> available)
>>>>>>>> but also regarding all layers of content and freedoms of use. A
>>>>>>>> metadesign
>>>>>>>> of licensing so that others can build upon and create options for
>>>>>>>> tinkerers
>>>>>>>> to use.
>>>>>>>> El abr 11, 2014 7:39 AM, "Andrew Back" <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> escribi?:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > On 11 April 2014 14:19, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> > > something like "your work must be under the following licenses".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Not that I know of, but it isn't difficult to ascertain what can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> > regarded as such by referring to the Open Source Definition:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >   http://opensource.org/osd-annotated
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Discrimination against field of endeavour being the issue at hand
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If in doubt simply consider whether the licence is aligned with
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> > source as it has come to be understood over the last 17 or so
>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>> > Every now and again you see attempts to subvert this, e.g. via
>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>> > NC licences with the term or purported ancillary rules, but you
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> > change the meaning of something so well established. Which is not
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> > say that there are not opportunities for new paradigms and which
>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>>>> > some term other than "open source".
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > > Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Not really, as you rarely get the source with shareware.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Andrew
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>> > Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> > http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 7
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:05:40 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: Michael Weinberg <mweinberg at publicknowledge.org>
>>>>>>>> To: The Open Source Hardware Association Discussion List
>>>>>>>>         <discuss at lists.oshwa.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Is CC BY-NC-SA not Open Source Hardware?
>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>> CAMwAheae_WitJno4YUkQDQPDF4NcuOkB+8X6NK3RTUqszvfVtw at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> probably also worth mentioning here that, as a general matter, a
>>>>>>>> copyright
>>>>>>>> on plans for a useful object (like, say, a 3D printer) doesn't mean
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> making said object is copyright infringement.  Details of Printrbot
>>>>>>>> specifically may vary, but it may be a useful thing to keep in mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Emilio Velis <
>>>>>>>> contacto at emiliovelis.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > But that leaves us with a very ambiguous use of the term 'open'.
>>>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>>> > check the CC faq, they recommend to use approved licenses only
>>>>>>>> for software:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > http://opensource.org/licenses
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In the case of OSHW, due to being different than intangible
>>>>>>>> goods, a list
>>>>>>>> > of requirements has to be developed for people to make sure their
>>>>>>>> work is
>>>>>>>> > not open in tue definition sense of the term (i.e. source code
>>>>>>>> available)
>>>>>>>> > but also regarding all layers of content and freedoms of use. A
>>>>>>>> metadesign
>>>>>>>> > of licensing so that others can build upon and create options for
>>>>>>>> tinkerers
>>>>>>>> > to use.
>>>>>>>> > El abr 11, 2014 7:39 AM, "Andrew Back" <andrew at carrierdetect.com>
>>>>>>>> > escribi?:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >  On 11 April 2014 14:19, Emilio Velis <contacto at emiliovelis.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > Question. Is there a list of approved licenses for OSHW? For
>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>> >> > something like "your work must be under the following
>>>>>>>> licenses".
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Not that I know of, but it isn't difficult to ascertain what can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> >> regarded as such by referring to the Open Source Definition:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>   http://opensource.org/osd-annotated
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Discrimination against field of endeavour being the issue at
>>>>>>>> hand here.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> If in doubt simply consider whether the licence is aligned with
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> >> source as it has come to be understood over the last 17 or so
>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>> >> Every now and again you see attempts to subvert this, e.g. via
>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>> >> NC licences with the term or purported ancillary rules, but you
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> >> change the meaning of something so well established. Which is
>>>>>>>> not to
>>>>>>>> >> say that there are not opportunities for new paradigms and which
>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>>>> >> some term other than "open source".
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > Regarding NC, that would be shareware by the book.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Not really, as you rarely get the source with shareware.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Andrew
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> Andrew Back
>>>>>>>> >> http://carrierdetect.com
>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> >> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> > discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Michael Weinberg, Vice President, PK Thinks
>>>>>>>> 202-861-0020 (o) | @mweinbergPK
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Public Knowledge | @publicknowledge | www.publicknowledge.org
>>>>>>>> 1818 N St. NW, Suite 410 | Washington, DC 20036
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Promoting a Creative & Connected Future.
>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> End of discuss Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12
>>>>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Weinberg, Vice President, PK Thinks
>>>>> 202-861-0020 (o) | @mweinbergPK
>>>>>
>>>>> Public Knowledge | @publicknowledge | www.publicknowledge.org
>>>>> 1818 N St. NW, Suite 410 | Washington, DC 20036
>>>>>
>>>>> Promoting a Creative & Connected Future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Weinberg, Vice President, PK Thinks
>>> 202-861-0020 (o) | @mweinbergPK
>>>
>>> Public Knowledge | @publicknowledge | www.publicknowledge.org
>>> 1818 N St. NW, Suite 410 | Washington, DC 20036
>>>
>>> Promoting a Creative & Connected Future.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> discuss mailing list
>>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> discuss mailing list
>> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
>> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Weinberg, Vice President, PK Thinks
> 202-861-0020 (o) | @mweinbergPK
>
> Public Knowledge | @publicknowledge | www.publicknowledge.org
> 1818 N St. NW, Suite 410 | Washington, DC 20036
>
> Promoting a Creative & Connected Future.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> discuss mailing list
> discuss at lists.oshwa.org
> http://lists.oshwa.org/listinfo/discuss
>
>
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